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(Milton, DE) – Interesting stuff on Beer Advocate this afternoon. Someone started a thread asking other members what brewery is the most overrated. Dogfish Head Founder and President, Sam Calagione piped in after a number of people identified Dogfish Head as their pick. The full statement can be found here.
Some snippets along with some thoughts…
It’s pretty depressing to frequently visit this site and see the most negative threads among the most popular. This didn’t happen much ten years ago when craft beer had something like a 3 percent market share.
It is also true to say that people talked much less positively about breweries ten years ago. Ten years ago, barely anyone visited beer websites. There are so many more people involved today in the scene and discussing it on a daily basis. People are going to bring up discussions of all varieties and the controversial ones will always win out. Seems like some breweries have yet to come to terms with the rise in negativity to go along with the rise in positiveness.
Flash forward to today, and true indie craft beer now has a still-tiny but growing marketshare of just over 5 percent. Yet so many folks that post here still spend their time knocking down breweries that dare to grow. It’s like that old joke: “Nobody eats at that restaurant anymore, it’s too crowded.” Except the “restaurants” that people shit on here aren’t exactly juggernauts. In fact, aside from Boston Beer, none of them have anything even close to half of one percent marketshare.
No one in the thread stated size as a reason for Dogfish Head being overrated though. Actually, at first glance, it looked like people simply listed the brewery name for the most part.
The more that retailers, distributors, and large industrial brewers consolidate the more fragile the current growth momentum of the craft segment becomes. The more often the Beer Advocate community becomes a soap box for outing breweries for daring to grow beyond its insider ranks the more it will be marginalized in the movement to support, promote, and protect independent, American, craft breweries.
But Calagione just cited small size as the reason not to criticize the brewery. And here, he is saying he strives to grow. To what extent? From a recent press report:
Dogfish Head owner Sam Calagione said the company could build enough capacity on its current land to generate up to 2 million barrels of beer a year, compared to the roughly 145,000 barrels it brews now, he said.
Size is arbitrary. We all know that. That much became clear when Boston Beer Co. passed two million barrels and the “craft” cap got lifted to six million barrels. So, I guess the magic question is this. At what number (barrels produced annually or millions in revenue annually), does the “We’re small, like us” argument/mantra stop becoming convenient?
If nothing else…
https://twitter.com/#!/dogfishbeer/status/156829089251069954
Thanks for posting this Adam! I generally miss the stuff on BA because it is too damn negative. Everyone wants to hate. I myself have only ever had two beers from DFH that I thought were bad and one just didn’t agree with my pallet and the other was way out of date, a 90 minute on the shelves in Wisconsin too long. They make excellent beer and I hope they some day make it to Minnesota. Nice response by Sam!
-Tucker
What? Negative posts on Beer Advocate? I’m SHOCKED.
Seriously, when will people just stop visiting Beer Advocate altogether. Their website, attitude and information accuracy is below (FAR) below what other web sites have to offer.
“small” is always going to be a term relative to the size of the international macros.
I don’t see it as an excuse, necessarily.
I also don’t generally visit BA because of the negativity. Hell, many brewers don’t care much for it, unless they’re operating a nanobrewery and their flagship, a quintuple black ipa infused with ancient Sumerian spices, brewed with fair trade coffee beans from a remote mountain in Uzbekhistan and the essence of Hossenfeffor, then aged in rum, port, chenin blanc and gin casks, served in a taxidermied platypus, at 72%abv and 500 ibus, is rated at least a 130 out of 100…
I digress.
With the positive, must come the negative.
Cheers to Sam for brewing great beer consistently and perpetually temaining “small.”
“does the “We’re small, like us” argument/mantra stop becoming convenient?”… after the first barrel you sell. If the beer isn’t good, I don’t care how local/small/etc you are, I’m not going to like you b/c the product you make isn’t good.
My feeling about 90% of DFH’s beers can be summed up in three letters- meh. When they hit it though, they hit it well.
They are incredibly creative, but I think to a fault. My issue with their beers is that I’m the one that overhypes it. I see the label, I read, get super excited. Pour it, get more excited, then I drink it and all the excitement turns into that “meh” feeling. Their beers can never live up to what it COULD be in my mind. I know this doesn’t make quite a bit of sense, but its the principle reason why I’ve shied away from their beers the past year and a half or so.
Taking their beers as is with no preconceived notions they are not a bad brewery at all, but they aren’t upper percentile nor as great as they seem to think they are. Most importantly this is not a factor of size, but the beer they create may be whats influencing their growth.
I know the ‘craft’ beer communities is tightly knit and rarely criticize each other (in public the public domain). However, I would been interested in seeing what their opinions are about these bigger/growing breweries and how they fit within the community.
DFH is falling victim to the “I’m too interesting of a person to like things that other people like” mentality that is so pervasive as of late. Something is only cool until other people find out about it–then you have to rush to be the first person to declare it “uncool” lest you lose your hand-crocheted hipster membership card.
I think part of Sam’s point here is that it’s silly to discuss what brewery is “overrated” because most of these breweries are too small to even be “rated” to begin with. That doesn’t mean they can’t be criticized, though. The internet, as we’re all quite aware, is a magnet for dissenting opinions. As you grow, the good will come with the bad, that has to be accepted. Still, I admire Sam’s response and spirit. He could easily be the president of the “60 Minute IPA Brewing Company” and he isn’t.
Just drink Bell’s and cut thru the crap….unless you are in Cali….then Russian River Brewing Co. does just fine…..!
I’d actually argue that it is all the more important for those small breweries like Cigar City to be rated to help them gain traction.
I agree with what Sam said and I’m glad he said it.
Most of the time “trolls” who post negative comments really have nothing better to do than, well, post negative comments.
In fact, most of the time they are so inconsistent with negative comments they might catch themselves posting slightly *positive* comments and go right back to being negative again.
So, Dogfish Head, do your thing because you deliver high quality craft beer which makes craft beer connoisseurs like myself, proud to wear that label. If the pint fits the hand, and its great craft brew, drink it or shut the f*ck up and pass it to someone who appreciates it 🙂
Cheers.
Rudy
San Diego, CA
I don’t have time to snift through 408 posts, but if someone else did, how many posts before someone answered the thread question (“Most overrated brewery?” with A-B or MillerCoors?
It’s all ridiculous. They rip on DFH for making “weird beers”, but then say they like/love their “normal stuff.” Fine, don’t drink the weird stuff, but realize that they keep making the “weird stuff” so somebody certainly likes to drink it.
I’ve been reading Sam’s book and he started on 10 gallon system. I can’t hate the guy for being ambitious. As far as over-rated, this is craft beer we’re talking about. There are going to be advocates and haters. BA should be called Beer Hater though. lol. Craft breweries are going to put out good beers and not-so-good beers. Its all a difference of taste. This could be a product of the fact that bad news spreads more viral than good news. And as the Execs at HP will tell ya..”I don’t care if its good or bad press. Its press.” As a new home-brewer, Sam should be proud that he has gotten to the point with his business that he can even be called OVERRATED!!! Its like you’ve been crowned when you get that designation. Hell, I want to be overrated.
“It’s pretty depressing to frequently visit this site and see the most negative threads among the most popular.” Yet, the name of the site is “Beer Advocate.”
What I have in my glass might say a something about me – but it doesn’t make me a “better” beer drinker than the craft beer drinker sitting next me.
Drink what you like. Have fun. Advocate craft beer. If we don’t, we’ll have only macrobrew or homebrew to choose from.
John hit the nail on the head. Advocate craft beer and stop telling people that the craft beer they drink is bad. Someone, somewhere liked the flavor profile of that beer and enough other people like it that it can’t be bad. You may not like it but that is a different story.
Simply the fact that he cares enough about his audience that he’s willing to speak directly to them should give him points. I expect apologies from those BAs.
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BA, even with its low reputation is still overrated! It’s a holding cell for trolls like to two who run it. Too bad because they have lots of good people over there who are steadily leaving. They’ll keep getting numbers because so many people get into craft beer everyday, but those new people will leave once they figure out how bad the site it. The only thing worse than the amount of hate on the site is their pitiful database. Translation: Respect Beer= put money in the trolls pockets.
BA negative? Go to ratebeer. Specially the danish section is swamped with negative knights of the Jantelov. It is so tirering i am done with that site as well.
Almost anyone who takes umbrage at a conversation about who is overrated assumes “overrated” means “bad”. It doesn’t. It means overrated. It’s quality in relation to hype or buzz.
A discussion like this, if constructive, can be more about how beer community can overdo the hype for rare beers.
For instance, I thought The Pliny I had was simultaneously overhyped and a great imperial IPA.
What bothers me more is that Dogfish cares.
BA isn’t what it used to be from when I joined. Majority of BAers think if it isn’t bourbon barrel aged than its no good. They bitch about Bud/Miller/Coors and how bad they are for beer and how they don’t do anything for the beer community but when someone (DFH) grows, they dis-like them because they are no longer the best kept secret. I stand by my comment that more than half of the users on BA are little goofy virgins living in their parents basement. They’re pissed because what they drank, many knew nothing about and now that craft beer is making a push, they beloved brand is growing and now everyone knows about it. Plus the Alstrom Bros are a bunch of friggin hypocrites with the mentality of nah nah nah nah its my site, I’ll do what I please. They lock threads they don’t like and post comments of “keep it beer related,” but look at their site, rolling advertisements for products not beer related.
Some of the reactions here are utterly hysterical. Say what you will about Todd & Jason. Maybe their site design is not hip ultra cool, mobilized, iPhoneized for your “free convenience”, but it is NOT their fault that people become members of the site and act like imbeciles.
Are they perfect people? Hardly. Do they do EVERYTHING right? No. But who is? There is so much pathetic stone throwing in the glass craft house these days it is laughable.
If you don’t like Beer Advocate, go to another site or take the time to start your own. If you don’t like a specific brewery or one of their beers or ten of their beers, do not buy those beers.
But one thing I would most certainly add, if you have been drinking craft beer and are exploring it, and don’t understand it, get a freaking dictionary before using words/phrases like “overrated”. Get a grip on reality just because you can hold a pint glass or open a bottle top DOES NOT mean you have any idea what you are talking about when you consume the beverage in front of you. Does that mean you have to like it, no. But try to have a discussion about it and gain some semblance of understanding before using erroneous words that you don’t know the meaning of.
How can Dogfish Head be the most overrated brewery when that title clearly belongs to Stone?
Beer drinkers still go on BA or read it? Huh. I really wouldn’t call Dogfish Head overrated. I think there are many more breweries that could take that title. I think Dogfish’s best beers are the year round beers. They have a couple good one-offs or special beers but I agree with Charlie above. It’s kind of a letdown when you read the label and then taste the beer and it doesn’t live up to the taste you had in your mind. My only question is why are brewers trolling around BA checking on what “Beer Advocates” say about them?
Trolling? Really Bryan? Is a brewer or individual representing a company and attempting to put a check on disinformation and distortion of opinion as fact “trolling”. For god sakes the man uses HIS ACTUAL name and photo and has been a member of beer advocate and a supporter of the site and the festivals and magazine since 2004. How is that trolling?
He and many other brewers & representatives of breweries regularly involve themselves in online discussion about THEIR product, and rightfully so.
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Yes, trolling. Maybe they should spend more time making beer instead of worrying if someone thinks they are overrated or not.
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Pretty sure they’ve spent a damn good amount of time making beer, hence their growth.
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A truly awful beer. It should be called Dog Breath. EVO in Salisbury, MD is far better.