If you discuss beer on Twitter, Facebook or on other website forums regularly, you know at this point that Dogfish Head Founder and President, Sam Calagione’s comments to Beer Advocate members became the top story of the day. From what I observed, many agreed with his points. Just as many seemed to gloss over them, merely content to see a brewer tell off BA members. Alarmingly, only a few put on their critical thinking hats (as I tried to) and delved a bit deeper into what Sam said.
See if you can keep up with these ramblings. I’d encourage you to read each blog post in its entirety for full context though…
From A Good Beer Blog…
It is a weird response. It could have been just “screw you, I do what I want.” It could have been about how the BAers had become jaded. Both of which are pretty much true. But no. No, we get handed that old saw about how we are all in one boat together and how Team Craft Beer has to pull all in the same direction. See, we need to support “breweries that dare to grow” because, like the flower, they are fragile. It is a call to not be a consumer. It is a call to be something between a co-conspirator and a patsy.
One of the commenters in that thread runs the Boak and Bailey blog notes…
As it happens, we’ve been pondering on this, too. (Just posted.) Object to the idea that if we as consumers don’t unquestioningly support craft beer, or even all beer, we’re traitors of some kind.
An idea further re-inforced by Andy Crouch yesterday…
https://twitter.com/#!/BeerScribe/status/156912922331856896
Back to Boak and Bailey, he puts relative size back into perspective on his own blog…
When a brewery gets really big — i.e. monolothic and powerful — the gloves are off. It’s not personal, it’s just that they’re no longer juveniles, and are subject to the law of the land like any other grown-up. We, the consumers, become the underdogs, the little guys in this relationship, and can surely no longer be expected to make any allowances for bad recipes or quality control problems.
Maybe Dogfish Head isn’t exactly monolithic and powerful but if you divide the production of some of the largest producing craft brewers by the smallest breweries and brewpubs it won’t be that far off of the ratio of AB or Miller divided by the largest craft brewers. Size is relative. Just a number. One that you can easily spin to make an argument.
Finally, long-time RateBeer member, Joris Pattyn chimes in…
But allow me to doubt openly, that all these spectacular releases for Beelzebubs’ Ultra-barrel-pooped Day, that every tweaking of the Chocolate-black-triple-IPA on yet another exclusive barrel, are fuelled by the desire to experiment. Some, my friend, are directed at the tickers, sorry, scoopers, just as happens in the UK, where the wave of microbrewers (more power to them), will have seventeen differently tweaked casks at every festival, never to be seen again. Not only this will enhance the drive to acquire the elusive brew at any price, it will also engender a negative reflex from those, for whom the grapes proved too green.
For what it’s worth, I don’t even necessarily agree with everything said above or in those posts. Just that skepticism and open dialogue is healthy.
“Overrating” in itself is a rather vague term which is what I was trying to get at yesterday. That may come from a producer becoming too big to be cool as Calagione alluded to in his statement. It may also come from not feeling an experiment was worth the price. Or something else entirely.
If you look at the Beer Advocate ratings for Dogfish Head beers, the lion’s share of the much more highly-priced experiments are actually rating below (some even far below) the staples like 90 Minute, 60 Minute and Indian Brown Ale. If you were to look at ratings for a lot of other breweries, you would probably find this to be quite common.
Calagione has said on multiple occasions that he has no desire to become “The 60 Minute Brewery.”
Or, in other words…make more high-quality, ‘more affordable’, sessionable beers. [edit: before I get throttled anymore for making that leap…I realize that the tone of his statement is that the brewery wants to keep innovating. But many of these ‘innovations’ are for big beers in big bottles. Why isn’t the brewery putting new innovations in 6-packs? This is a question that goes beyond Dogfish Head and deserves discussion among beer drinkers. And yes, Palo Santo and the gluten-free beer in 4-packs is a start…but will we see more like these?]
Maybe that is, in only so few words, what Beer Advocate members are asking for from Dogfish Head and other breweries.
They just haven’t realized it yet.
Beer for thought.
Adam, all due respect, how can you possibly derive “doesn’t want to become the 60 Minute IPA brewery” (Sam’s paraphrased line) equates to “Or, in other words…make more high-quality, affordable, sessionable beers.” (Your translation).
Ratings on Beer Advocate or Rate Beer should not define what the brewery does or does not do. Not every beer drinker spends the time to rate every beer they drink and frankly, with all due respect to what Jason and Todd have over there, and what the folks who built Rate Beer have done, once the engine is churning, most of the reviewers simply riff off exactly what other people say about beer and score it high because they like it, or perceive that they like it.
Better said, it is some far adrift for consumers to compare 90 minute IPA to say Festina Peche or Palo Santo Marron or Namaste. These beers are not even remotely connected in any fashion other than they use barley and were made by the same brewery.
Sam’s intention is NOT to say that he won’t make beer that people want, but it would be a damn depressing day to see a brewery the likes of Dogfish head make a beer decision based on the scores on Beer Advocate or any other beer rating site currently existing or in the future. What a sad boring flavorless world that would like to. We’d have macro lagers and double ipas, with the occasional black double ipa.
That is Sam’s point. It is not that you, I or anyone should like every beer Dogfish and every “craft” brewer makes, but that people should at least respect that a brewery seeks to reach multiple consumers in the market place.
Anyone who has ever brewed beer can tell you the easiest beer to make in which you mask flaws and poor quality is a hoppy beer. Add some late hop additions and some dry hopping and you can thrill any seeker of the bitter masking fermentation flaws a poor malt bill etc.
I’d assert that part of the problem with craft beer fans at this stage is that they are so hopelessly addicted to IPAs, Double IPAs and Black IPAs doubled as well, that they barely have a palate to understand that guess what, a wit beer is not supposed to be hoppy.
“Calagione has said on multiple occasions that he has no desire to become ‘The 60 Minute Brewery.’
Or, in other words…make more high-quality, affordable, sessionable beers.”
I have to disagree with that sentiment, as that’s not what Sam was implying at all when he made that statement last year.
In the original context (during the wave of BrewMasters-fueled popularity), he was discussing the shortages of 60 and 90-minute IPAs that had been occurring. He simply didn’t want his brewery’s innovation to stagnate (or become known as a one-trick pony) by devoting a disproportional amount of resources to a single style of brew.
DFH has several sessionable brews under 6%, and as for what one considers “affordable,” that’s an entirely different— and highly subjective— point of view.
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I’d assert that part of the problem with craft beer fans at this stage is that they are so hopelessly addicted to IPAs, Double IPAs and Black IPAs doubled as well, that they barely have a palate to understand that guess what, a wit beer is not supposed to be hoppy.
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… apparently you haven’t been paying any attention to the Barrel aging craze.
Agree with Jim. And I’d add further to my comment above, that 90 minute IPA is a strong hoppy ale, not a sessionable beer by any stretch of the imagination.
To further elucidate on Jim’s point regarding “affordable” being highly subjective. A couple of weeks ago Firestone Walker 15th anniversary beer hit shelves in my market. The beer is without a doubt, expensive relatively speaking. But having bought a few bottles and having tried one you’d be hard pressed to tell me the value and affordability was not there. Craft beer and all beer is a commodity not a right. Where are we headed the “affordable beer act”?
We are awash in choices as beer drinkers, don’t like something, don’t buy it, everything else amounts to grandstanding in my opinion.
@Jim
I’m trying to find the original statement(s) now. Was it during a Brewmasters episode?
I worded it poorly but we are on the same level. Innovation doesn’t necessarily automatically mean better and breweries shouldn’t necessarily be championed just for “innovating.” The question drinkers have to ask is this: are those innovative beers matching the quality and value of core (year-round and seasonal) offerings? If not, I will be the first to raise my hand and say, “Make more 60 Minute please.”
I feel pretty similarly to Alan in that, basically, craft brewers need to learn to be a little more bulletproof than they are, but at the same time, the Beeradvocate types can do a little better at being critical. “I don’t like some of their beer” doesn’t suffice for calling a brewery overrated. That said though, no brewer is too small to be beyond criticism, especially not one with the aspirations that Dogfish Head has. Whether you’re big or small, you’re all judged in accordance with similar criteria. The bigger you get, the more used you’re going to have to be taking the hits, whether the reasons are valid or not.
I think we’re on the same page, Patrick. Maybe?
As I clarify in the updated note, I realize that the statement is meant to imply that the brewery wants to keep innovating though innovation in itself shouldn’t be celebrated. Those innovations come at an opportunity cost. Are brewers wisely innovating? Are the new beers that they are creating matching the value and quality of their other offerings? Just my opinion but I don’t think as many people would have identified Dogfish as overrated if those innovations were in $12 4-packs or 4-packs versus $12 750ml bottles. It is a high risk/high stakes game to package beers in that way.
Stephen I am very well aware of both the brewery and consumer kick for Barrel aged beers, of which has nothing to do with the fact that hops, hops and more hops is what drives the lions share of beer fanboyism.
Don’t misinterpret that as me not liking hoppy beers, because I love them, but there are far too many breweries these days abusing the use of the word “imperial” “double” and cramming as many hops as physically possible into a beer.
Barrel aging whatever you or I think about it is distinctly different than any other on the shelf product because you don’t run a beer through a barrel and bottle it within two to four weeks. So people might be seemingly going barrel crazy, but we’ll never see a day in which their are as many barrel aged products on the shelf as there are IPAs and Double IPAs.
Affordability in itself is subjective. So is value. Affordability when comparing two items on the other hand…not so subjective.
Dogfish Head 60 Minute is more affordable than Faithfull Ale but it isn’t necessarily more valuable (depending on your taste).
Should’ve been more clear with that one, too.
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Barrel aging whatever you or I think about it is distinctly different than any other on the shelf product because you don’t run a beer through a barrel and bottle it within two to four weeks. So people might be seemingly going barrel crazy, but we’ll never see a day in which their are as many barrel aged products on the shelf as there are IPAs and Double IPAs.
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This goes without saying due to size / space limitations.
My comment was based around your belief that everyone is Hop-crazy. I disagree and would assert that most people are going Barrel crazy currently… I think the hop-craze has been muted a bit compared to a couple years ago.
More or less the same page or at least a healthy conversational disagreement. I hear what you are saying in that, if you are a fan of Dogfish 60 minute, you’d prefer to have more of that. I won’t really put more words into Sam’s mouth that I already have, but to me I think the feeling for a brewer like that is, I want my job to be interesting and I’ll take the risks that come with that. They’ve learned enough over the years in terms of how much they need to focus on core to maintain their business with how and where to experiment to keep the “off-centered” vibe Sam strives for alive.
I think for breweries like Dogfish, Sierra Nevada and Stone for example, they could make 60 Minute, Sierra Pale Ale and Arrogant Bastard until their fermentation tanks rotted out. But I think that would stand in stark contrast to why each got into the business in the first place. They don’t need to corner the market on IPA, Pale Ale or obscure unidentifiable hoppy hopness (not making fun of AB it is one of my favorite beers) to what end would that lead them.
That is where I think some of the critics are wrongly reading into or using Sam’s words against him here. Sam is not beyond criticism, nor is he beyond standards. If people have watched his show and followed the brewery they’d full well know there are times he has taken it too far in his own view. What he is saying is not don’t knock Dogfish, but more precisely everything we make is not for every one. You might like 60 minute, I might like 90 minute, I might like 120 is a bit much, someone might loath Palo, I love it. Does that make any of the beers beyond being criticized nope, but with some proper perspective and a dose of respect I think that is a fair at least indulgence.
People’s opinions these days are definitely getting colored by size, politics and idealism, perhaps moreso than ever because there is an abundance of choice in the beer market place. So I think it is far to say, rather than spending time and energy on “Dogfish is overrated” start a freaking thread on a beer you’ve just discovered, a style you just discovered, a local pub you have in your area. The overrated/overhyped comment meme on beer sites is really nothing more than an opportunistic moment for someone to say “hey, look at me, pay attention”. Because just as easily they could have reviewed the beer, never bought it again and moved on. But we have a desperate need it seems for validation of our opinion.
Very well put on all accounts, Patrick.
On a personal note, the dialogues you’ve had with me and others in these comments means a lot to me.
Thank you!
Adam
The shelves and taplines say differently Stephen. I am not talking about buzzing topic trends in beer, I am talking about the products, what is available and what colors beer drinkers palates.
In short I have had more than one instance in which I’ve had “craft beer fans” assert that the wit beer or doppelbock I am drinking “sucks in their opinion”, only to be followed by “I hate beer that is not hoppy”. Meanwhile while I could try to inform them of how much they could not be more wrong, it does not really matter as they have already stated their grounds, if it ain’t hoppy it ain’t beer. Hops sell, I get it. I am not stupid. But it sadly marginalizes the field as hop forward beers are distinctly different from those which are not. My point is it clouds peoples perceptions because it is the most extreme end spectrum of the ingredients to beer other than wild yeast strains.
I don’t expect everyone to enjoy every style of beer. Personally I have yet to find a style I don’t enjoy, with perhaps the exception of light lagers, but that is me. At the same time I in comparison I try to get into other foods and such, for example cheese. There are cheese I simply cannot eat. I want to like them, but I don’t. That doesn’t make them bad, I just can’t get my tastes around them.
Thanks Adam, but it really comes down to you and others providing the forum for information to be shared and discussed. Without it we’d all just be pissing in the wind.
Cheers!
I apologize if this post makes very little sense, I am running on less than an hour of sleep right now (yes, I know, posting here is probably the last thing I should be doing….oh well). I just wanted to chime in from a fairly ignorant standpoint on Adam Nason’s paraphrase of Sam Calagione’s comments. First, I think innovation should be applauded for its own sake. But, I also think it is a bad idea from a business standpoint to only focus on only on innovation (I am not saying Dogfish Head does that, but sometimes it appears so to me, that is perhaps one of several reasons they have not crossed over into Missouri yet?). I would say Dogfish Head can do whatever it wants, however, if these innovative beers take precedence over other popular products like 60 Minute then they should not be surprised that some customers will be offended. It is not the end of the world, I will still buy these innovative beers as well as the “high-quality, affordable, sessionable beers” (when I can get them!).
Then your experience, Patrick, is very dissimilar to mine.
I hear more about Barrels, Wild Yeast, Fruit additions, and so on then I do Hops.
When I think of breweries that are “innovative” my mind doesn’t drift anywhere near Hops.
90 Minute was innovative in 2000, but if the same beer came out today it’d be lost in a sea of similar beers.
Put that 90 Minute recipe in a Barrel, toss in some Wild Yeast or age it on Apricots and you’d have a beer-nerds wet dream.
I think.
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I am not talking about buzzing topic trends in beer, I am talking about the products, what is available and what colors beer drinkers palates.
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Sorry, overlooked this comment.
I’m speaking about “innovation” and how its perceived by beer-nerds… seems we’re comparing Apples to Oranges.
Agree with Tim. I think having the option is important. Planet beer is a lot more interesting when brewers are “innovating,” regardless of whether or not much of the beer is worth our while. But I’m sure we can all admit that the “innovative” brews do not consist of the majority of what we’re drinking. Most of the time we want something dependable. But it’s nice to have the option. If any of these “innovative” beers yield something sublime, I’ll accept all the misses for the two or three hits. Just make sure there’s a ready supply of the dependable stuff, too, because those beers can be equally as sublime. The variety is something I won’t ever stop appreciating.
I live in a world where craft beer and home brewing intersect.
In the home brewing community, the Word of Sam is so revered it is as if it should be written on stone tablets. Sam worshiping home brewers have angrily said to me, “you don’t follow Sam’s procedure; are you saying he’s wrong?!” And DFH is always near the top of every American Homebrewers Association poll of most popular beers.
So when the craft beer community seems to despise the brewery so much, I get a little confused.
I’m just a little minor leaguer in the sea of beer bloggers, but I can’t help but wonder if all this controversy is at least in general, a good sign? Neither side is really right, but neither is wrong, and this is all about how we all want a say in this ensconced niche. The craft beer industry isn’t a fad, so now we all have to figure out what the long term view should be for our little world. Do we innovate and innovate and innovate? Do we create the perfect porter, pilsner, etc? Style over substance? No right answers. NO brewery should be expected to ignore their bottom line for the sake of beer, because they all have families to feed. That said, every consumer has the right to criticize on any basis they’d like. I personally think BeerAdvocate is bad, in the same way that Yelp is bad. The crowdsourcing lets people criticize for the wrong reasons. There are beers with 5-10 reviews by people WHO DON’T like that style of beer in the first place. So they aren’t even reviewing it properly, yet here we go giving them some say in the megaphone of review sites. But, there’s also the same problem with people obsessing about trends. Who cares if every brewery wants to make a barrel aged beer or a sour or a septuple belgian IPA with civet asses? Vote with your dollar on the beers of the future. Or better, vote with your educated tastebuds? Vote for what you like?
Overate: To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
Asking which beers are overrated is akin to setting up a rating site where thousands of users rate beer. Explain to me again why this is such a blow to DFH?
Patrick I totally agree with what your saying. As a brewer I understand more than what most consumers know other than a price of a beer. Knowing how much love and patience it takes to make a great sour means I expect to pay more for those beers. Sam is an amazing brewer and has put a great team together. I do commend him in his journey. There are some of his beers I’m not crazy about but I’m glad he has made them and I have tried them.
Pre-Sam comments = DFH is overrated.
Post-Sam commentary = Well said, Sam! You tell ’em, Sam! Atta boy, Sam!
The problem with the craft beer community is the same problem with the tech community (yup, I’m part of both). Sam is often seen as the Steve Jobs of beer. He’s young and hip and good at marketing his product. You say anything bad about him and the fanboys go crazy.
There is a serious problem if we are unable to be critical of a brewery, regardless of size. If we are supposed to just be happy that there are breweries and ignore the mistakes they make, then the whole industry will fail. That’s telling us to not be consumers like someone above said. As consumers, it is our responsibility to be critical of the products we buy. Breweries should WANT us to be critical. It helps them give us what we want, which ultimately helps them succeed. If they don’t want to succeed, then by all means, keep telling us to sit quietly praising them just for existing.
The whole craft beer industry and community annoys me to many degrees. I like beer. I will drink what I like, I will criticize breweries for making poor decisions, and I will praise with my money. I don’t care who owns what brewery. I don’t care who makes what beer. If the beer is good (relative to my own personal tastes, because beer is completely subjective), I will buy it. If you want to criticize me for it, go right ahead.
Is Dogfish Head overrated? I don’t think so. Are 60 and 90 Minute overrated? Yes, I do think so. There are other IPAs and Double IPAs that I would much rather drink. Does that mean I don’t like them? No. Does that mean they’re bad beers? Not at all. Being overrated does not mean you are a bad brewery. It just means you have a lot of hype around you that may not be necessarily deserved. That is the case with Dogfish Head (though I would say Stone is WAY more overrated than Dogfish Head… flame away).
I have a personal policy to not read BA much. The posts are all rehashes of everything else. The moderators are annoyingly arrogant. And the reviews don’t really mean a whole lot. We need a review site that has 3 ratings… Liked it, Meh, Didn’t like it… where points start at 0, increase by 1 for Liked it, decrease by 1 for Didn’t like it, and are given 0 points for Meh… and the displayed score is a percentage out of 100 (total points divided by total votes, multiplied by 100). This would be a better way of having the average Joe review something. Leave the more scientific reviews to the professionals (or people who like to think they’re professionals).
Adam, it seems to me that a great many are in a never-ending search of that genie in a bottle that will surely change their life in an instant; and thus are consequently left with the unavoidable feeling of anticlimaxication.
i like to keep in mind the wise words of the late Don Younger, “it’s about the beer, it’s not about the beer.” : just enjoy yourself and your surroundings, and whatever happens to be in your cup.
@RunawayJim Again, the issue is not that consumers can’t be critical. The entire argument has spun away from the point of doing more TO CHAMPION beer vs. lets play a game of which brewery is more cooler than the one that used to be the most coolestest brewery yesterday.
Critiquing a beer and brewery is fine, trying to drag them down with silly utterly subjective arguments build around flimsy terms such as “overrated” or “hype” is really an exercise is a given beer site users mental masturbation.
Insofar as kicking the rating system down to three easy variables, I think that is overly simplistic. And in the event someone did want to go down that road, the only fair metrics to put into the rating would be:
A. Not for me (as in would not personally buy again)
B. Pretty good (will probably drink this more)
C. Like it (as in will get frequently)
Still that is a very simple approach to something much more complex, but the reason I would caveat the first answer as “not for me” is going back to the notion, that some people have no freaking idea what they are supposed to be tasting.
If someone drinks only IPAs and loves Dogfish 60 minute and 90 minute, and then buys Palo Santo Marron and is disappointed that it was not “hoppy enough” and tasted thick and syrupy, I’d have to wonder if that individual is lacking basic common sense. And I see this type of A = B and therefore it should = C simpleton review of beers A LOT.
In summary, critiquing beers is not nearly as much the issue as it is having any idea what the critique is about.
The one thing I will say that in my humble opinion many of the most vocal voices leading the larger Craft Breweries have collectively brought upon themselves is an us vs them mentality. And naturally at some point the consumers are going to start to think the same way about craft breweries, for any number of reasons. Fair or not, that is a fact and we are seeing it start to play itself out and Breweries, brewers and the owners are going to have to deal with stomaching the next period of the movements history, which is not going to be as nearly Camp Fire Song happy as the last decade peaked at.